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Misha's avatar

> This sounds simple, but it was revolutionary. Alchemists certainly did experiments, but they often interpreted results through pre-existing frameworks... When an experiment didn't work, they might blame [..]. Early chemists began to treat unexpected results as potentially valuable information about how nature actually works, rather than as failures to achieve a predetermined goal.

It feels there is something very deep behind this mindshift. It increases the learning signal density per observation. And the "alchemist"/"scientist" mind stance differentiation seems widespread.

Encountering a bug in your program, answering a question from the textbook incorrectly, or failing to apply self-help advice. Curiosity in learning from negative results brings you much closer to almost any goal in the above endeavors (or "dissolving" a goal). However, the human default seems to ignore large or whole parts of the negative experience.

And this scientific mind stance seems really hard to notice and switch to, if you are in a "alchemist" mode!

1. There is a reflex of feeling bad that covers nodes linked to negative outcomes with 'ugh fields'.

2. And there is resistance towards switching to enjoying leaning towards contact with negative: "but I care about [working program/answering textbook questions right/being a good person/getting gold] - why should I seek leaning towards something that is the OPPOSITE? You want me to stop caring about my GOAL? No, thank you very much!"

Maybe this shift truly happens from some larger viewpoint or worldview?

Thomas Bosman's avatar

Curious what you think of Prometheus Rising in relation to this (if you've read it)? If not: I've only read the first 5 chapters so far, but the exercises he suggests at the end of chapters feel very aligned with what you describe here. Eg in the chapter about "what the thinker thinks, the prover proves" he talks about deeply believing and visualizing that you will find a quarter on the street and seeing how long it takes to do so. Then varying the explanation for this phenomenon you believe in, seeing how that changes the time to get a second quarter etc.

The hostile telepaths thing is an interesting case for me actually. Reading your lw post when it came out has made a significant impact on my perception of this phenomenon, I believe. But it's pretty hard to put into words what exactly changed. I think it started with just noticing self deception in response to a hostile telepath after the fact. Moments where I would recover hidden information after the person left, combined with expectations that that information would be poorly received by said person. After a while I started flagging self-deception happening in the moment. Not that I would uncover the information itself, but a felt sense that it was happening based on a combination of signals. Part of it is a particular flavor or somatic tone, nervous system activation, feeling unsafe and inadequate with the timing suggesting it's related to something the other person did or said. That last bit obscures some of it: I think I experience a 'gnosis' that the change in my system related to a particular expression of the other person, but I'm not 100% sure how I get to that sense. Then there is the part where I can somewhat gauge if there is some information that feels dangerous by reflecting on the thing that just transpired. Often I will naturally start to wonder about how I feel about something, and that process is cut short with a strong sense of fear or danger. Something opaque happens here too, but in practice it feels obvious when I connect with dangerous information by the shape of my experience. It has a particular flow and vibe and tone to it. Sequence of events. Content. All factors into it I think, but I can't really give a formula for it. Another thing that seems to happen reliably is that my image of the other person changes when I'm supressing something. I feel more distant from them, they look less beautiful, more threatening, less nice. I start spontaneously questioning whether I enjoy being with them more.

I'm not thrilled with the vagueness of this description, but it's also not obvious how to improve it. I think very crisply describing exactly what happens is a dead end. Too much experience to keep track of, some of it probably not conscious even in theory.

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